Podcast Transcript: Military Retirement is Confusing

How much should I save for a down-payment?

November 4, 2022

Podcast Transcript: Are you a good neighbor?

November 14, 2022

Published by admin on November 14, 2022

Tags

Find the Podcast Audio Here!

Intro:	Welcome to the MilHousing Nation Podcast, where we are having conversations that matter for wherever the military is taking you. We’re bringing you stories from real military spouses who not only understand the challenges, they are harnessing the opportunities to build lives they can live from New spouses to veteran spouses. You’ll get tips and tricks and actionable steps that will help you along your military life journey. Welcome, everyone. This is Heather Campbell. We are so thankful that you have joined us on the new housing nation podcast where we dive into the uniqueness of the military family journey by helping you build a life, a community, and a home you love where you are not in control of where you will call home next.
0:40 Heather:	Hey friends, it’s Heather and I am thrilled. I know I say that every episode, but these topics that we’ve been talking about since I have been able to come into the podcast have been really exciting new ways for me to learn lots of things and to share them with you. Today, I have a very dear friend of mine, Stephanie Sheehan with me, and we’re going to be talking about military retirement, which as a military spouse and a lifelong military dependent, I feel like I maybe should know more about this than I do. And there’s a lot of things to learn. So before we get into that, I want to just thank you for being part of the MilHousing Nation. Thank you for listening to the podcast. Make sure that you are following MilHousing Network on social media. You can find them both on Facebook or Instagram just search MilHousing Network. They will come right up. You can also find them at milhousingnetwork.com. Of course, you will see if you’re listening to this podcast, you will have the link to the show notes, where we will also have information about today’s topic, our sponsor, and any additional questions that you might need answered. You will find all of our contact information in there. Okay, let’s go ahead and get started. Stephanie. Hi, thank you for coming on today and for talking with me about this.
1:49 Stephanie:	Hi, Heather. It’s so good to see you and talk to you today.
1:56 Heather:	I know this is so great. Now, I know we are meeting via zoom. But we have been together in two different locations, which is totally unusual. Our husbands are like enlisted and officer and at different career fields entirely. So, it has been such a joy to get to know you and every time I think about anything finance related, I know I’ve texted you multiple times. Oh my gosh, listen to this great milestone we hit or oh my gosh, listen to this thing I just learned and you’re always the first person I think about, so for today’s episode, you know, talking about how military retirement is confusing. You of course, are the person that I want to talk to about it. But tell us a little bit before we get into that difficult topic. Tell us a little bit about you and your husband and sort of your military story.
2:34 Stephanie:	Stephanie: Well, I would be glad to. First of all, I’m honored to be a guest on your podcast today. And basically, my journey started with my husband over 30 years ago. We got married on February 22, 1992. And he enlisted February 26, 1992. So, in 29 years, I think, five months, four days. I only know that because the retirement cake. And then I am proud to say I am a spouse of a retired military member and this is I think the first time I really said it like that. So, that’s kind of crazy. So we did that whole journey together. And from E1 to E9, we were blessed with a lot of opportunities and always tried to share anything that I had regarding finances. And as you know, with our younger military spouses and our seasoned ones. So, it’s been an awesome journey and I missed it but I still have friends like you along the way that I’ve kept in touch with so it’s pretty great.
3:31 Heather:	I know I love seeing that in the military circle how we did in different spaces or even at joint bases where you’re in a different branch or you move to a new place and you kind of find people where you’ll say “oh, you know my friend so and so. Okay, well if you know that person, then you’re good with me, right?” Like you’re good in my book. And so it’s been fun to see how those connections come full circle and I’m we’re about halfway through our military journey. I thought that maybe I would have like a better grasp on our future and what our retirement will look like by now. I’m hoping the next decade just goes really slowly because we don’t have a plan yet. So, maybe this is episodes a little anxiety inducing for me because it’s coming a lot quicker, you know than I thought. You’re in the year those first couple of years and for us we had little kids and early career and so anyway, I am so thankful again to have you on here.
4:20	Now, before we get started, I’m going to review the new retirement system. So for those of you who are listening, and you’re on the old retirement system, I think they call it the legacy system, the higher three. We’re not going to go through that because you are pretty familiar with how that works. Now, if you are on the new retirement system, if you came in after January 1st of 2018, for your service members on the new system, or if you decided to convert over, I’m going to hit the high points, so that we can sort of know what we’re working with when we talk about military retirement because it can be confusing, especially with this big change which now is a couple of years old, but still seems really unfamiliar to so many of us.
4:56	This is what I have been able to find. Again, we’re about halfway through our career. So we’re on the old system. So, my math is easy on my side. But for those of you who are interested in the Blended Retirement System, maybe you’re enrolled in it, maybe it’s something you’re considering joining the military and this is something you want to know about here are the highlights. For every year that you’re in the military, the government automatically contributes 1% to a thrift savings plan. That’s basically the military equivalent of a 401K. And they invest it and it grows and it’s retirement account. And what’s really neat about this Thrift Savings Plan, we also call it the TSP, we love our acronyms in the military. The TSP can move with you, so if you decide to leave before the 20-year mark, you can take that pot of money and take it to a new location. You can take it to a civilian employer, you can take it to government work, you can do lots of different things with it. Where previously, if you left before that 20-year mark, you know, your 14-107, you kind of got a thumbs up of like, “Alright, thanks for being here. Have a great life. We got nothing for you.” So, this is a really great step to incentivize some of those military members to still be preparing for their future even if they’re not looking for that 20-year mark.
6:12	So, automatically, the government will be putting 1% of your base pay the equivalent of 1% of your base pay into an account and you don’t have to enroll in that you don’t have to do anything they just automatically will be putting 1% of your base pay into this account. Now, members, military members are automatically enrolled to contribute 3% out of their base pay. So, government’s putting in the equivalent of 1%, 3% of your own paycheck is going into this account. Now we’re up to 4% total, right? After two years of active duty, you can step that up well you can step it up at any time, but after two years, the government will match additional contributions. So, for those first two, you know they’re only putting in 1%. But, at the two-year mark, they will auto-match that 3% that you’ve been putting in and they will also match up to 4%. So, say I want to take my paycheck and I want to give 3% – Great! The government’s going to match that 3%. Say I want to go up to 5% they will automatically match that 5%. Now, say I’m just really doing well with my finances and I want to contribute, say 10% of my pay the government is still only going to match that 5% rate. So, it’s still a great benefit to take advantage of but it’s not something that’s just infinite, right? Like you can’t just put all your money in there and like expect to double it so they do have a cap on that. Additional highlights of this retirement system is that if you make it to the 20-year mark and you do retire, you get to take that retirement account with you, but you also still get sort of that pension-style retirement and the math is a little different now it’s 2% per year. So, where it used to be 50% of your base pay at the 20-year mark now, it’s 40% of the base pay, plus all of that money you’ve been saving and contributing gets to go with you along the way. So, those are the highlights.
7:58	There’s also a mid-career bonus for many careers. They’re different for different ranks in different career fields. But there is a bonus to help sort of give you that incentive to stay that the last part of the career and when you retire you can choose an early payout or a lump sum payout. And there’s a lot that goes into that and that math. So, I encourage you if you are getting out you’re looking at what can I do with this account payouts, retirements, that sort of thing please, please talk to your base, installation finance office. They’re going to know all of the details and more importantly, they’re going to know the newest updates. Remember all of our defense budgeting is determined by the National Defense Authorization Act, and that is renewed every year. So, sometimes they change those rules every year, right?
8:40	Okay, so if you have questions or listening to this episode, please contact the officials at your installation because they are going to have the latest updates for you. Although it’s still sometimes feels like it is clear as mud but that is what we can do on the military side with our service members. What we’re getting with the benefit is for our military members what their retirement matching is, that’s all of that. Okay, that can be confusing also. Stephanie, I asked you here is there’s a lot that we can be doing along the way with our own finances, with our own routines, with our own decisions to help prepare us for retirement because again, we don’t know when they’re going to change rules, right? Maybe I get to year 17 – this will be my nightmare – year 17 or 18, my husband you know they change the rules and everything’s not how we thought it would be. So what would you recommend? What did you guys do? Tell us a little bit about your story and what you recommend for young families, maybe mid-career families like ours, even those families maybe that are really close to retirement, what can we be doing of our own control to be preparing for retirement? Because there is a lot of unknown not just finances, but like how TRICARE works and how the payments work and VA benefits and it’s just really scary. You know, my husband’s had been doing this since he was 18. So we don’t know grown-up stuff besides this. So please tell us how you guys prepared and what we should be doing.
9:59 Stephanie:	Well, you know, it’s so awesome. Like, I was thinking about this on my walk today because I knew of my conversation when he was coming up. And I feel like this almost needs to be a series, right? Like there’s so much information to cover. And I feel like this is actually the best time because when I’m talking to before about finances, we were still in the thick of it to, right? Now we’re a year, my husband actually June 30th is one year retired. So, we gotten to see kind of like, what’s the hindsight? Was the things we did? Did it come to fruition? Did it make sense? Was it a good plan, and I’m happy to report that it was and I would love to share some of those things. Gosh, there’s so much but I guess I would say it’s never too late.
10:40	First of all, I would encourage the listeners because this subject can bring anxiety, and it can bring uncertainty. And that’s not my goal. My goal is to inspire all of us wherever we’re at to start today. Because today is today and we can’t control what happened yesterday, but we control what happens tomorrow. I really encourage the listeners for that. I would say that I really starting to take it seriously probably up that hump of like okay, past the 10-year mark, probably 12 years, this is going to be a career, right? Like, this is actually going to be something. And, so that’s when my plan started. And I saw my other friends who are older than me go through retirement and the job maybe didn’t come soon for their spouse or maybe they didn’t have an emergency fund. All of these things, you know that they didn’t prepare for, they were kind of living after the fact. And, so I knew I wanted to kind of make those pivots where I could, and so mine began probably on the enlisted side when my husband’s pay got comfortable for us, right? So, everyone’s different everyone’s debt is different. Everyone’s finances are different. So, for us, master maybe tech was comfortable but master for us was super comfortable. So, at that point, you know, when you learned to live off, I always tell my kids you can manage a little, you can manage a lot. So, we kind of started to say okay, what can we live off of and what’s extra. So, for us that meant promotions that meant even year raises that meant the beginning of the year raises, which those usually weren’t too much. So, that would kind of encourage, but definitely even years and promotions.
12:12	And what I began to do is I said okay, my goal is to have one year saved up for retirement, right? After retirement, of what his monthly pay was, his average yearly pay was, basically and I thought it might be that we would be able to handle books come in retirement, right and it took them a while to get a job. I didn’t want that stressor on him after serving our country so well. I didn’t want that stress on him or our family. So, I think that’s where I started. And then it just became a rule from there. I kept like a little separate account that I would put money into give them staying 29 years. So, thank goodness for us, I learned those disciplines throughout that time. And our money really began to grow and so that was encouraging. And so when he began to be close to retirement, I didn’t have the nervousness, at least financially – retirements aren’t enough without the financial piece, right? It’s a huge transit for military members, families, all of us and, so by doing that really felt like a huge burden off everything else that was that felt kind of not normal, you know, that you’re going through. And, so that’s really where it started. And that’s where I encourage our spouses if you can start thinking forward about what can I – that next raise, right? Now, in today’s times, it’s different. You know, COVID kind of changed everything, the pandemic, now the inflation is going affect on military families in every area. So, I would say you know, anything you can contribute of that promotion or of that raise to that retirement plan that you would put in place would be better than nothing at all, right?
14:04 Heather:	Right.
14:05 Stephanie:	That small, start small see that grow at one where you can, but I think that was really super helpful for us and it made a huge difference come retirement for us.
14:17 Sponsor:	A nationwide lender with branches across the country, Caliber Home Loans Incorporated is staffed with local experts who are eager to share their knowledge and help you realize your dream of homeownership. Caliber is committed to meeting the specific mortgage needs of the brave men and women of the United States Armed Forces who serve our country with resolute sacrifice and bravery. Their combination of our user-friendly technology and professional guidance of their loan consultants creates a smooth route to homeownership.
14:45 Heather:	I remember when you first shared your story with me, you know, I had three kids under four and we were one income. We are still paying off student debt and so we weren’t saving for retirement yet. We were putting all of our eggs, you know, sort of in that basket of let’s get out of this debt, this debt that was averaging about 7% interest. Okay, let’s get out of the debt and then snowball that into retirement. And just about a year ago, we finally got to the point where we’re like, okay, we’re, it was December of 2020, refinanced our house interest rates were low on like right now, but they were low. So we refinance the house, got some wiggle room there, and then paid off the last of our student loans. And so that was a really great moment for us to kind of really look around and say, Okay, what’s next? You know, at that point, we had been married eight years and every single thing that we can scrap together went towards getting out of this student loan debt.
15:36	Now, as we returned to Alaska, we had had a promotion since the last time we lived here and I told my husband, hey, I know how to run our household on the previous rank’s budget. My plan is just to keep running our house on that budget and start just as this little small increments, right? And we just hit one of those even-year raises this summer. And I said, Hey, but even your raise like we’re a year into our new location as you know, we’re in interior Alaska. It’s very expensive. There’s a lot of things that make it tricky financially here, and I said, Hey, we’re good. We’re a year in. We’re so comfortable. Let’s take that even your raise and just just actually start a regular contribution because it kind of been here and there but it wasn’t, you know, out of the paycheck, that regular set contribution. So I feel like now we’re in our mid 30s. We’re halfway through his career and we’re kind of just getting our feet under us. So, sometimes I feel like we’re really behind the curve, but that’s why I love talking to you because you’re so encouraging.
16:32	Now, what would you say to families I know that we have a mutual friend that we were both with, when we were here in Alaska together, they were getting very close to retirement and one income due to family circumstance and work circumstance and they were not able to have 20 years or 10 years worth of savings, right? They had really made decisions for their family that were not benefiting them financially. And I know that by the time they reached that retirement mark about three or four years later, they were feeling really comfortable based on some of the recommendations that you gave to her. So, what would you say to any of those families that are maybe at that 16-17 year mark, maybe they’re just hitting that E-6 – E-7 pay raise, they’ve got kids, they’re, you know, all the things that make life difficult when incomes are moving around in this house can’t get work? What would you say to them in those maybe five years before retirement? How can they best prepare?
17:21 Stephanie:	That’s a great question. And, you know, that’s where I want to encourage, right? So, like I said before, it doesn’t matter where you are, start where you’re at, but I would say if you write down and what I did was that spouse is we wrote down, you know, kind of what is the spending, right? I feel like you know, when we write things down and just see that sometimes we have a little extra, but we don’t realize that we have it because it’s so easy to spend five bucks and start, well I think it’s $6 at Starbucks now, right? So, everything’s gone up. So, you don’t realize that that $6, you know, that could be 80 bucks a month or whatever it is, and that small amount, although it may seem small. When you keep doing it, it adds up very quickly. So, I would say I like what you brought up to about debt. I think there is that fine balance, right, between taking your debt down, and then also preparing for tomorrow, right?
18:13	And what’s more important and I would say if you’re gearing towards retirement, if you can aim to reduce as much of your debt as possible. I would still encourage for those that are maybe have a little bit more debt on the books than they would like, I would still say you know what for you, you may not be able to take that whole promotion on that whole even year, right? You may have to kind of make that towards paying off your debts but even whatever liquid money you have in the account as an emergency fund is going to reduce the stress when that retirement comes because remember, you go about 30 days without a check. If you know you’re going to full retirement. You have that wait for your first retirement check. And that first retirement check, it’s very different. You don’t have all the entitlements. You don’t have the BAH. You don’t have those things.
19:00	So, another thing I would suggest too, which is super helpful to me, I don’t know I’m sure I showed you, Heather, is to have – for me was a book and I would have a look at you know what I would do is I would find out okay, what is my husband’s projected retirement? I could have told you eight years before he retired what he was going to get retirement pay. That’s pretty calculated. I would say do that too. See what that retirement check is gonna look like. What does that look like? Where are we at? How much do we need to bring in to be as prepared as possible for that scenario, because what you know now will definitely – good, bad, or ugly, it will prepare you for that moment. And it’s better to face it now than to just kind of push it down and not want to look at it because it’s coming, right? Let me just share 29 years never in a million years that I think you’re doing 29. It was 20 and done! That was the deal! But, you know, my husband’s career had another plan. And it was a great ride. It gave us more opportunity to save to save too, and it wasn’t a bad thing. But as you know, it comes really fast. So, even for those people, I’m just about to have the opportunity because even if it’s just a thought now that’s in your head. Now you can do something with it. Right? You’re not looking at it. You’re like oh, that’s tomorrow but, man, tomorrow comes so fast.
20:15 Sponsor:	Trust is everything. For 140 years, Navy Mutual has been safeguarding your family and your future. Navy Mutual’s financial strength and stability ensures they’ll be there when you need them the most. They are there to provide members high quality, low-cost life insurance, and annuities, educate the military and uniformed service community at large on matters of financial security, and to help members secure their earned survivor benefits. With commitment, competence, and character, for Navy Mutual, it’s all about trust.
20:48 Heather:	I love how you line out that, like kind of see where you are now maybe looking at your spending now, looking at what you want that future to be. I work as a registered dietician, and whenever I’m working with families specifically about meals, I tell them all the time I’m the GPS. right? Okay, I get to help guide your path but we need to figure out where you’re starting and where you’re going. And a lot of times people kind of just want to be at the destination, right? They want to be teleported like, “Okay, I want to be at my goal already.” Okay, well, if that’s your goal, let’s see where you are now. Let’s map out the steps. Let’s map out the turn-by-turn right and I feel like this is the same way as sort of, you don’t know what’s not working until you really take a look at it.
21:25	Now, I do have a recent budget workbook that I got from the military spouse. It’s very detailed. It’s wonderful. It’s on paper. I’m a paper girl, but it was a little too detailed and a little too overwhelming for me. I am a big fan of using, and those of you who are listening you might be familiar with these. Lots of different things offer like a spending breakdown. So, maybe your main bank or your main credit card that you use or anything like that. And there’s even apps and websites that you can link to your accounts that will bring all the data in and put it in a pie chart for you and tell you, “Hey Heather, you are supposed to be spending $50 a month on and coffee and you’re spending $75 a month on coffee. You need to like your over. You either need to adjust your budget or adjust your spending, right?” So, for those of you who are overwhelmed with the idea of looking at all of your finances or categorizing them, you can totally enlist a software for a very affordable price. Some of them are free. Some of them are a few dollars a month that will map that out for you and tell you exactly what adjustments you need to make. So do not be overwhelmed if that feels really overwhelming. Google, Google your favorite. There’s a few that are recommended in different places and find one of those tracking apps or websites and also same thing for retirement. They have them both for military retirement that you can go on the website calculate. They also have more civilian ones of “hey, I want to be completely, completely done working, right, at age, whatever. Here’s what I expect to need to pay for that age” and then sort of work backwards from there.
22:52	So, I love that you really line that out. And say hey, you’ve got to know what you’re working towards. Otherwise, it can be easy to get caught up and just doing the coffee. And also not feeling like you’re making any headway and I’m wondering, did you ever have because I know I have to have a point in those early years of saving, you know, you’ve got this big goal right the finish line and you’re maybe in year two or year three year five of that plan, and you’re like we are not getting anywhere. Like did you ever had that moment where you’re like, “we are killing ourselves for nothing!”?
23:22 Stephanie:	Yeah, I think for sure. For me, it’s definitely in the beginning. You know, I think it’s in the beginning is hard. It might be foreign. And that’s where you have to just dig in and just keep going because it’s going to – it will add up. And I wanted to share to, I don’t want this to get missed. So, when you look at someone like me, I want it to really be an encouragement because I do not on a college degree. So, my husband went in as an E-1. You know, I made minimum wage back then. Which I’m not even gonna say out loud because it’s so ridiculous. I literally had to work just to pay daycare so I could have $50 or $100 a month to pay the bills, right? So, I want listeners to know that I speak from a place where I understand how hard it can be to save and to be able to do that. But I also want to say I did it and so can you. And I also didn’t work for the last 10 years because of my husband’s career. We were moving, I think seven out of eight-nine years and so, I didn’t work. And so we were able to do this would be working, so I really wanted that to be an encouragement to your listeners to know that it may feel hard if you’re used to doing it. It might feel foreign if you’re not used to doing it, but I promise if you start today, and you will see that it will be hard, but anything worth doing is sometimes hard, right?
24:43	And it’s going to do something and it’s also going to prepare you for that retirement lifestyle. And I want to encourage your listeners to that, we were scared, I’m scared of retirement. I was like what does that look like? Oh my gosh, we’ve had all this taken care of for so long. We’ve had this income coming in. And I just also want to share with your listeners that this has been the best time. Like I was like, “What was I thinking? Like this is retired life?” We’re more comfortable today than we were in the military. So, I want that to be my encouragement for your listeners too, that sometimes the grind are really hard and really days can feel long. But there’s something really great at the end of it and you just have to keep your eyes focused on that not get you know not get discouraged.
25:25 Heather:	See, my dad – my dad was in the Airforce and he retired after 25 and a half years and he did about half of his time enlisted and then half of it on the officer side, so he was an enlisted maintainer. So, those of you who have been in the maintainer world, you kind of have an idea of what that was. Dad of three girls but he’s an enlisted maintainer, right? And then he switched over to the med group as an officer. So, I have seen two completely different worlds of the Air Force. And then now my husband’s just in the normal air force, right? We don’t fly. We’re not medical, like we’re just in the regular old everyday people. So, I’ve seen lots of different sides of it. But in that my parents kept our budget when he commissioned he was tech sergeant. So they kept our budget growing up around the tech sergeant, and maybe in between Tech Sergeant First Lieutenant pay, right? And as they got those increases, they did exactly what you share. And once my dad retired, he was like, I don’t know, 43? So, he went and worked a civilian job for 15 years and he took that retirement check and put it towards a retirement account.
26:25	So, there’s also that side on the retirement once you do sort of cross that line. If you make it to retirement or even once you leave the military with this new system and you can take this retirement account, there is opportunity to be just like you said more financially comfortable because of the way that some of these systems are set up to help provide for you so that while you get out, maybe get a civilian job that pays similarly and then make that retirement check. My husband does not have that plan. He wants to be a high school football coach and just live on his retirement – a combo of the coaching and teaching check and the retirement check. So we still have a couple of years to get on the same page about that plan.
27:05 Stepanie:	And then I would also like recommend to your listeners too, as you plan out like what that retirement check would look like, my best advice is to you can try, right? You can only try, to think that you can have your expenses fall under that retirement check. And I know that that might be a challenge, you know, if you have debt and things like that. But if you can try to get as much under that, like you said, Heather, the retirement lifestyle can be super comfortable. So, I want that to kind of be like the carrot at the end of it, right? Like, you know, definitely delayed gratification. But, also don’t restrict yourself, so much that you’re not living life and experience in it because you can have extreme both ways. So, I don’t want listeners to just save until they’re miserable, right? Like you have to find that balance and anything you do is going to help definitely prepare you for that next step for sure.
27:56 Heather:	That’s such a good insight. When we were in the middle of this debt pain years. We got our tax return one year and every year we knew the tax return went to a lump sum to whatever that the debt was we’re working on, right? And I remember this came in and I was talking to my spouse about it. I said “okay, this is what you know, here’s my let me pull up my Excel spreadsheet. Let me tell you what we’re doing with this.” And he’s like, “I think we should do something fun. Every year we just put it towards debt. Like let’s do something fun.” We had moved back to the lower 48 where we can you know more easily travel places. And I was just like, appalled. Like, what?! I remember calling my mom being “listen, listen to this. He thinks we should do something fun.” And she’s like, so I’m kind of on his team for this one. You guys been working really hard. And so that year we use our tax returns and we went to Disney World with our little kids and it was so wonderful and really finding that balance of okay these future goals that we have, but not forgetting to live life now and enjoy the things now that we get to experience. So, it is so different. It’s so different for each family for their financial history for their financial future where they are now. But, I love you know sort of knowing what we can work with from the military side for retirement and then also what we can contribute for our own well being and for our own security and just knowing that we’re at least doing what we can. So, thank you so much for sharing everything. Any last tips you want to leave with our listeners before we close today?
29:17 Stephanie:	Oh my goodness, Heather. There’s so much that I would just say also encourage your listeners to also start thinking about what that looks like as far as Survivor Benefit Plan, you know, start looking into that because that’s an option after they retire. Do you want to do that? Do you want to do a whole term? Do you want to do a term life policy? You know, start thinking about the things because if anything happens, right, that military retirement does not go to the spouse. So, that’s the next step. But, that can be another day, another conversation, but just to look at the whole picture and it’s been an honor to have this time with you and your listeners today.
29:55 Heather:	Yes, thank you again for coming and for sharing your story, your experience and what you’ve learned along the way and how to find that balance and also for encouraging all of our listeners.
30:06	For those of you listening today, I hope that you have been encouraged and blessed by today’s episode. Remember, you can find us on socials at MilHousing Network, both on Instagram and Facebook or you can find us at milhousingnetwork.com. You can find the show notes to this podcast wherever you are listening. And thank you all so much for being a part of the MilHousing Nation. We appreciate you. The MilHousing Nation is where you always have a community no matter where you’re stationed.